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Talk:Judge Claude Frollo
I really don't think he is a complete monster. Yes he's very evil, but he started out as more of an anti-villain; he thought what he was doing was good. I think he should be taken off that category.--Snakewhip 01:38, January 12, 2011 (UTC) he's arguably a tragic villain since he is obsessed with a love he can never have (a bit like Quasimodo - only obviously he deals with his feelings in a FAR more destructive manner) - it could be argued if it was not for his uncontrollable xenophobia towards Gypsies and his mindset that everyone is Damned (including himself) he would not really be a villain at all. he is a man who was geniunely terrified of losing his immortal soul to imagined evils in the world (ironically losing it in the process) - he is also insane by the end of the movie and although insane people can be "evil" they are still technically tragic villains as once one is insane one has no control over one's actions.. 01:54, January 12, 2011 (UTC) you both misunderstand the point of a "Complete Monster" - Frollo may be tragic but he's a religious fanatic.. as long as he exists no one in his setting is safe and by the end of the movie he is almost universally hated by everyone: even the audience will find it hard to sympathise with Frollo after what he does, few characters are born evil and even fewer commit evil out of a desire to do evil.. some of the most destructive and loathsome acts in history are committed by men and women who seek to do good: if they cross a certain boundary they become a "Complete Monster": Frollo crossed this line when he basically called on genocide (persecution of Gypsies), killed a mother on the doorsteps of Notre Dame (sacrilege), attempted to drown Quasimodo and so forth.. although he was insane he was of sound enough mind to remain in power and was capable of utilizing his position in a manipulative manner (such as the torture scene - rare in Disney): he is also driven mainly by lust, using his religion as a way to try and justify (to himself) acts that are without justification.. he also damned his soul at the end of the movie (or it is heavily implied) - if you looked at Frollo's final scene he is a demonic monster.. totally devoid of humanity.. tragic? maybe.. a monster? most definitely Queen Misery 00:42, January 23, 2011 (UTC) *One of the disqualifiers of being a CM is that you AREN'T supposed to be a tragic (this is even stated on TVTropes). If anything, CMs are devoid of tragedy in any way besides causing it. No tragic backstory to make you sympathetic to them, nothing. Just straight-A Evil from the get-go, and constantly enjoying evil always. You want a Disney villain who is TRULY a CM, try Maleficent (1959 version, NOT the trashed version from 2014). She openly enjoys her evil and has gone far enough to call herself the Mistress of All Evil (and considering the kingdom hated her immensely, I'd say that there was quite a bit of validity behind the statement). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 19:33, June 26, 2016 (UTC) OK personally I beleive he is evil. No one can deny that fact. BUT he is trying in his own twisted ugly way to "purify the world"CartoonBabe96 15:24, May 6, 2011 (UTC)Rayne Say whatever you want to say about Frollo, But to me he's one of my most favorite Disney Villains ever. User:Venage237 Frollo is stated to appear in an upcoming Kingdom Hearts video game.So, should I add him to the Kingdom Hearts category?For proof on this see the Hunchback of Notre Dame on Wikiedia.robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net 14:42, June 1, 2011 (UTC)Robinsonbecky Yes, but if he read the Scriptures saying that killing people was wrong, and he committed murder anyway, then he is a Complete Monster. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net 00:57, August 28, 2011 (UTC)Robinsonbecky There's also the fact that Frollo's implied to have acknowledged that maybe he wasn't as righteous as he was letting on, but he later ignores it. Therefore, that makes him a monster. robinsonbecky@bellsouth.net (talk) 13:19, July 17, 2014 (UTC)Robinsonbecky *Complete Monsters are generally completely remorseless. In other words, they don't even care at all if they go to hell for their actions (heck, the Joker in the Arkham series even freely admitted he was going to hell with stride). The fact that Frollo did in fact fear for his eternal soul does make clear that he does have remorse. And as far as the scriptures, God Himself also violated that commandment as well via Sodom and Gomorrah, and even ordered Saul specifically to commit genocide against the Malenkites. By your logic, God Himself IS a Complete Monster because he ignored the rules he laid out. And when the musical specifically based on and adapted from the Disney film specifically redeems him near the end, that's enough to not make him a complete monster, as the entire point of a complete monster is that they are completely irredeemable. That's not to say he isn't one of Disney's darkest villains. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:19, September 1, 2014 (UTC) *Frollo is a Complete Monster through and through, specifically designed not to be a funny, quirky, enjoyable villain but a horrible Hate Sink; as well as a symbol of how fanaticism twists pure religion. He does not has the slightest remorseful bone in his body and his fear of damnation is purely seflish. NEVER does he regrets killing Quasi's mother in cold blood on the steps of a holy cathedral, for crying out loud! The Archdeacon is a moral authority who calls him a murderer and he only grasps the threat on his soul, not the significance of his actions. Proof, the Archdeacon tells him to raise Quasi as his son, and he raises him as a lowly shamelul secret whom he horribly abuses. Like all fanatics, it is not madness who drives him evil but evil that fuels his Villainous Breakdown. Balthus Dire (talk) 00:02, September 21, 2014 (UTC) **Actually, if he were a complete monster, he wouldn't even CARE for the status of his soul, period. Look at Kefka, look at the Joker (and for the record, Joker when about to be killed often revels in the fact that he's going to hell, like saying that Batman will be going down to hell with him when he dies). I've seen plenty of Complete Monsters who don't even REMOTELY care about the status of their souls. Heck, just look at Eric Cartman, for example, he didn't care if his soul was damned to Hell when he was tricked into thinking he died. And he DID regret killing his mother, as otherwise he would NOT have taken in Quasimodo and if anything he would have killed him anyway. If I were Frollo and I were a Complete Monster when confronted with that, then not only would I say casually "well I'm damned then!" with a smile and drop Quasimodo in the well anyways, I'd even stab the priest while saying "Hail Satan!" because that's EXACTLY what Complete Monsters are like. You can also ask plenty of monsters from the 20th century and even the 18th century who made CLEAR they reveled in the carnage and going against God, not even CARING if they went to Hell. In order to truly be remorseless, you wouldn't even CARE if your soul is destined to Hell and constantly do evil acts just out of sick amusement anyways, like Joker, Kefka, Frieza, Dr. Weil, Volgin, and the like. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 20:39, June 26, 2016 (UTC) **EDIT: Besides, God himself killed PLENTY of children, which is itself a heinous act he ironically abhors without even a SHRED of remorse, like in Egypt where he slaughtered the first-born of each Egyptian, and I doubt the locales of Sodom and Gomorrah were childless. Are you going to label God as a CM as well? He did it in even MORE cold blood than Frollo did. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 21:20, June 26, 2016 (UTC) **If you're going to use to use God to argue against Frollo not being a CM, then that category may as well be deleted. KrnxMan86 (talk) 12:50, January 16, 2017 (UTC) Just to precise one thing. Frollo is not in love with Esmeralda AT ALL. He wants to bone her, plain and simple, not caring the slightest whether she wants it or not, and hates her even more for that. Also "if he was not racist he would not be a villain at all"? Are you kidding me?? Are we speaking about the same guy who wants to commit GENOCIDE, who kills a woman in cold blood, tries to murder a BABY for being ugly, sadistically enjoys hearing someone get flogged, horribly abuses the guy he was tasked to raise like a son, attempts to burn an INNOCENT FAMILY for no reason whatsoever, burns half the capital of France with its population, and assaults a moral authority and a religious monument; all this being convinced that he is the best man in the world???????????????? Very cool villain? sure! Disney's best Villain song? Hell yes! Enjoyable because his evil has human roots and could happen to people around us? Yes, yes and yes. Bigot, fanatic, murderous, self-righteous, self-satisfied, monstrous, lustful, hateful? Check and check. Sorry pals but he is a Complete Monster, and was meant to be. Heck the entire POINT of the movie is to highlight how loathsome a scumbag he is. "Who is the monster and who is the man?/What makes a monster and what makes a man?" anyone? Balthus Dire (talk) 00:02, September 21, 2014 (UTC) Unfair.. I know this page was the victim of spam but COME ON admins, here we have one of the BEST examples of Lawful Evil (from Disney) and I can't add it to the page due to it being blocked even for registered users.. same as how I can't add Neutral Evil to Emperor Palpatine (who is widely regarded as one of the best examples of that alignment in fiction). It just seems unfair to me.. Suxx 22:38, May 26, 2012 (UTC) May someone please add the "Drowners" category? He attempted to drown baby Quasimodo, but the Archdeacon stopped him. NotReadyIma (talk) 00:37, September 20, 2014 (UTC) IIs it possible to unprotect an article, as I see no reason for doing so in this case, and as you guys have pointed out with the categories, it is hampering the quality Ohdear15 (talk) 10:54, December 28, 2014 (UTC) Complete Monster status At risk of necroing, I want to say that I fully believe that's worthy of Complete Monster status. I don't find him sympathetic at all -- the priest of Notre Dame calls him evil and a sinner (and he's right), and the fact that the Gargoyle seems to come alive implies that God Himself is condemning him. Not only that, but the only time he feels any sort of guilt is not true remorse. He blames his "sinful" desires for Esmeralda on her, accusing her of casting a spell on him and slut shaming her. He even gives her the illusion of choice with either death or him, which is essentially rape, as coerced sex is rape. TV Tropes' page on writing Magnificent ######## even states that rape is the line that the Magnicent cannot cross. No matter how brilliant (which Frollo is not) or charismatic s/he is destroys any way that any sane audience could admire him. He feels no genuine remorse for himself and the movie goes to lengths to show that the Romani worship the same God he claims to worship, thus making it clear he has no excuse for finding them to sinful. Yes, he is the most human of the Disney villains, but that is only because he has the most realistic evil. Maleficent wants to take over a kingdom and curse a princess. Frollo wants to commit genocide and is ragingly racist and xenophobic. The comparison to Nazis is apt and he strongly calls to mind actual, real life tyrants. That's what makes him human, not his supposed conflicted nature. I firmly believe him to be the most evil cartoon villain I've ever seen, even more so than Ozai. But this is just my two cents, but it's generally excepted that Frollo is a definite Monster, which is the criteria for this Wiki. He's even the page image for CMs on TV Tropes article for Disney. Squall L. (talk) 05:01, December 9, 2013 (UTC)Squall L. **Darth Vader was also considered extremely unsympathetic and lots of characters, even after death, considered him pure evil, yet last I checked he is not a complete monster at all. Besides the problem is that Complete Monsters aren't supposed to be played sympathetically at all, and even TVTropes listed him under "Cry For the Devil" under the Hunchback of Notre Dame's YMMV page (and keep in mind, this was the animated film's section of that page). And I'd say fearing for the fate of your soul definitely qualifies as genuine remorse. I know Eric Cartman, back when he was tricked as having become a ghost, didn't even take into consideration the fact that he'll go to Hell if he doesn't redeem himself, and besides which, a lot of villains do things without even caring if their soul is damned as a result. And you'd be very surprised at how realistic some of the Disney Villains are with being card-carrying villains. I know Marquis de Sade freely acknowledged he was an evil scumbag at one point and made clear, with pride even, that he had no intention of redeeming himself. **Besides, in the English version of the German Musical, at least (both of which were directly adapted from the film and not the original tale, so it still counts), Frollo actually DID redeem himself, as he left Quasimodo and Esmerelda be nearing the end, even when he pretty obviously had the opportunity to kill them then and there and was intent on doing so, and one of the key parts of a complete monster is they CANNOT be redeemed. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:30, September 1, 2014 (UTC) **The Cry for the devil entry is more about his evil being human and relatable, but it is one thing to explain, another to forgive, and most other entries in TV Tropes describe him as a loathsome, petty, self-righteous, fanatical, monster. Yes he prays for the Virgin Mary, he prays for a loving deity to burn an innocent girl, what a lovely fellow! He refuses to even acknowledge his fault and always shifts the blame, even in front of the red hoods (symbols of his guilt) screaming MEA CULPA! over and over. It is absolutely clear that, a typical trait of fanatics, he is unable to fathom desire (a normal human reaction) as anything else than a satanic temptation. As any sane young woman would cast a spell on a genocidal bigot whom she loathes to make him lust for her. TV Tropes has the "Sex is Evil and I'm Horny" trope that describes it fittingly. Balthus Dire (talk) 00:02, September 21, 2014 (UTC)I firmly believe him to be the most evil cartoon villain I've ever seen, even more so than Ozai. But this is just my two cents, but it's generally excepted that Frollo is a definite Monster, which is the criteria for this Wiki. He's even the page image for CMs on TV Tropes article for Disney. Squall L. (talk) 05:01, December 9, 2013 (UTC)Squall L.same God he claims to worship, thus making it clear he has no excuse for finding them to sinful. I knw many would greatly disagree but when Captain Phebous tries to escape Frollo ordered his soldiers to not shoot his horse does that mean he isn't completely a complete monster. ChasHades'ChasHades (talk) 22:15, June 24, 2016 (UTC)' *Here's my deal: In order for Frollo to truly qualify as a Complete Monster, he'd need to behave EXACTLY like Kefka Palazzo, the Joker, Volgin, Dr. Weil, and all of those guys, who know full well are evil and are NOT tragic in any way in their characterizations, do evil things simply because it's fun. Oh, and not only has no remorse at all, but clearly revels in his evil acts. And don't claim "general consensus" as a reason to claim he's a complete monster. General consensus claimed that Che Guevara was practically an angel who could do no wrong (just look at how Che was lionized in Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker to get a good idea of general consensus at work), yet in reality, he was a mass-murdering remorseless terrorist and psychopath who especially enjoyed killing defenseless people (and in fact, Frollo is practically a SAINT compared to Che Guevara). If ANY Disney villain is a CM, it's Maleficent, considering she openly considered herself evil and had about as much love for causing carnage as Kefka and the Joker. Frollo's literally nothing compared to Maleficent in terms of vileness. *Also, he does acknowledge his faults: In case you've forgotten, the song "Hellfire's" lyrics literally have Mea Culpa in the lyrics which means he DOES recognize his faults. Besides, I can name plenty of villains who wear their faults like a banner, fully acknowledge their faults and have no remorse at ALL for their faults and clearly enjoy them, like Kefka Palazzo, the Joker (in fact, many times, he even freely acknowledges he's going to hell with some glee when he dies, not to mention his entire schtick is to force Batman or some other paragon of Justice like Superman or Harvey Dent into committing murder against him specifically to prove his sick philosophy that anyone can turn into a monster. In fact, the only version of the Joker who was even REMOTELY sympathetic was the one from The Killing Joke.), Frieza (heck, his introduction even had him freely admitting that, and I quote, "all the horrible stories you heard about me are true.") and I can even name some real life monsters who are like that, like Marquis de Sade or Karl Marx or even Jean-Paul Sartre or Michel Foucault, all of whom DEFINITELY wore their faults like a banner and were proud of their faults (and all of those guys, BTW, were FAR worse than Frollo by a LONG shot, heck, Maleficent was worse than Frollo, especially when she was the Mistress of ALL Evil.). Want Frollo to be a CM? Have him give a similar introduction to Frieza like, I don't know, "I doubt you need an introduction, but just in case, I am Judge Claude Frollo, and yes, all those horrible stories you heard about me are indeed true." Weedle McHairybug (talk) 19:31, June 26, 2016 (UTC) *EDIT: Also, having sympathy for him requires that he be relatable, which means you CAN'T list him as a complete monster if he is actually able to be sympathized by decent folk or the audience. Look at Volgin or Red Skull, or the Joker or Kefka Palazzo, or Frieza. They are all completely unsympathetic, have absolutely no relation to the audience in any single way. In other words, you CAN'T humanize complete monsters, that's just impossible. Was Kefka humanized in Final Fantasy VI? Was Maleficent? NO! Weedle McHairybug (talk) 15:52, June 27, 2016 (UTC) You have got to be joking, Frollo's a thousand times worse than Maleficent. FacelessIllusion (talk) 14:52, August 6, 2016 (UTC) :No, Maleficent's objectively worse. Otherwise, she wouldn't even have earned the title of "Mistress of All Evil" (and considering pretty much the entire kingdom practically hates her, it's implied that it wasn't JUST a self-proclaimed title). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 14:04, August 6, 2016 (UTC) :Here's what I would say about this: *Weedle McHairybug, this isn't a strong argument. Judge Claude Frollo is a Complete Monster, and Walt Disney Pictures intended him to be one. Frollo's reason for killing Gypsies may be understandable, but trying to kill Quasimodo and burn down Paris takes him way beyond the Moral Event Horizon; there is no excuse in those actions. *ChasHades, I think Frollo would still qualify as a Complete Monster because he would still want to use the horse for evil actions. :Therefore, Frollo would still qualify as a Complete Monster. Misry6 (talk) Because apparently this needs to be more than edit notes. Look Frollo can not be a Heretic, he clearly believes in the mainstream religion of the land, in the case of, Reinsurance era France Christianity, If he were not religious he would not be guilted or swayed by the archdeacon in the first place.To the end he believes he is an instrument of God, whether he is or not he believes it, his intent is based on his faith in the mainstream religion of the land. Some of his final words are a quote from the Bible about smiting the wicked. A Heretic needs to be intentionally against the mainstream religion of the land. No matter how crazy they are a Heretic needs to intentionally see themselves as something other than part of the base faith of society. In a Christian environment this would mean demon worshipers, pagans, Jews, Muslims, Wiccans or atheists. He is clearly none of those things. Mesektet (talk) 01:44, January 4, 2014 (UTC) How come a lot of articles are there when yet this page is locked? DenisFan1998 (talk) 16:20, October 3, 2014 (UTC) Headlined Articles category What ever happened to the Headlined Articles category? I'm 98% sure he was a VFW at one point. Why was it removed? VideoGamerGuy95 (talk) 08:48, July 21, 2015 (UTC) Xenophobe? Since when are gypsies a race? They're a group of people. Lord Cutler Beckett isn't considered a xenophobe because of his deep hatred of pirates. What's the difference?Joe Devaney (talk) 21:09, September 9, 2015 (UTC) Who is exactly evil like Judge Claude Frollo? I choose Father from FMA: Brotherhood, he's similar to J. Claude F. They do very evil things. They meet the deathly fate. One, Judge Claude Frollo falls down to his hellish death after failed attempt to kill Quasimodo and Father tries to justify from Truth. Mr. C the GoAnimate Guardian 13:23, November 13, 2015 (UTC) 'What are Judge Claude Frollo's ties to Darth Sidious and Lord Voldemort.' Three of them are triple troublemaking Complete Monsters. They may be as evil as each other. 2 have died in falling to their deaths while one was struck to death by Killing Curse 3 have made genocidal thoughts (Muggles, Order Of The Phoenix, Jedi, Gypsies) Eee8 (talk) 03:03, March 27, 2016 (UTC) Frollo inbox picture Can someone change the picture as it is too small and the origional was better''' ChasHades (talk) 21:18, September 10, 2016 (UTC)''' Psychopath I know it's debateable whether or not he's a CM (i think he definitely qualifies), but he is definitely a psychopath, so can someone please add him to that category? He's not a master manipulator. The only case of manipulation is how he treats Quasi, a person who has never seen or experienced anything of the outside world. Even Frollo's actor, Tony Jay, stated he's easy to see through, and that it's always clear what he's up to. XOBITES (talk) 15:18, May 4, 2017 (UTC) Judge Claude Frollo's Page on Here May I edit Judge Claude Frollo's page on here? Zachary Willaim Barringer (talk) 23:07, December 15, 2018 (UTC) One last audio file I just found some audio file for one of the quotes of the page. One from Clopin and about his personality. NoahAlexanderJohnson (talk) 21:48, July 21, 2019 (UTC)